investigating Runway entry issue 09R - update?

[Speedbird193]

I appreciate there's already an older thread but is there any update on the issue with runway entry for 09R?

BATC directs all aircraft to N8, so it must be something in the scenery. In the prior version of the scenery it correctly uses N11. Using N8 is causing all sorts of issues.

First of all it reduces TORA which impacts long haul departures in particular. Secondly, it causes inefficiency from a taxi perspective as AI aircraft approach from North, East and West to a junction rather than all going West to the furthest entry point (N11). Aircraft taxiing up from T4 now also have to cross 09R whereas using N11 they can just enter from the South and line up.

Would be great if this could get fixed. 27L works as intended with aircraft lining up using N1.

[richboy2307]

Hi @Speedbird193

Unfortunately a sim limitation that prevents us from doing so. You can't define displaced thresholds, only runway start/end points and moving it to the first entry point will make it so the AI start landing from within the displaced threshold.

Thanks!

[Speedbird193]

4 hours ago, richboy2307 said:

Hi @Speedbird193

Unfortunately a sim limitation that prevents us from doing so. You can't define displaced thresholds, only runway start/end points and moving it to the first entry point will make it so the AI start landing from within the displaced threshold.

Thanks!

Thanks for the answer. BATC, correctly, doesn't use 09R for landing as in reality Heathrow uses 09L for landing 99.9% of the time when operating on easterlies. So it would be far more realistic and accurate to just use NB11 as the runway start point as there's a 0% chance of aircraft landing in the wrong area but a 100% chance of AI and me being directed to use the wrong entrance every single time. That's how it was done in the prior version of EGLL for 2020 too so not sure why it was changed now.

I still think this should be fixed based on the above. 

[BrianT]

19 hours ago, richboy2307 said:

moving it to the first entry point will make it so the AI start landing from within the displaced threshold.

But surely that's an issue for Asobo or AI dev's to fix. Start of runway displaced or not is the start of runway. A fully laden A380 will have little or no rome to abandon a take off when starting at N8 and you can hardy get them to backtrack.

This was also an issue in the 2020 version for 9L and you fixed it for that. I agree with Speedbird193 this really needs to be set to NB11

Edited Wednesday at 11:29 AM by BrianT

[richboy2307]

Your suggestion is noted.

The issue is that BATC is not the the only traffic addon that will get affected by this change. There is default sim AI traffic and also others that may not have as well defined logic for runway selection or relying on "real-time" data, and those will end up being affected with wrong landing point as a result. So its a case of accommodating one use case, but then users complain for other type being broken. 

For the most part, yes this is an issue for MS/Asobo to address. For the moment the start point was chosen to be from displaced threshold to avoid such issues with the sim AI traffic, as you can't re-direct landing AI traffic but as a user you can still taxi over to the full-length point on your own accord.

Thanks!

[Speedbird193]

31 minutes ago, richboy2307 said:

Your suggestion is noted.

The issue is that BATC is not the the only traffic addon that will get affected by this change. There is default sim AI traffic and also others that may not have as well defined logic for runway selection or relying on "real-time" data, and those will end up being affected with wrong landing point as a result. So its a case of accommodating one use case, but then users complain for other type being broken. 

For the most part, yes this is an issue for MS/Asobo to address. For the moment the start point was chosen to be from displaced threshold to avoid such issues with the sim AI traffic, as you can't re-direct landing AI traffic but as a user you can still taxi over to the full-length point on your own accord.

Thanks!

Thanks. It's unrealistic though - 09R is virtually never used for landing in reality and is always the designated take off runway when on easterly config. 09L is the designated landing runway. It's different when 27L/R are used as they switch halfway through the day, but that's not relevant to this issue and they seem fine in terms of runway start in this version anyway.

The counterargument to your different use cases is that 09R isn't even used for landing in reality, so if default AI traffic or something else wants to land AI aircraft on there then that's already unrealistic in the first place. So by catering for landing in the right place on the runway vs allowing us to use the correct line up point (NB11) you're trying to solve a problem that's not even there in reality. Please fix this and switch it to NB11 so we can line up correctly. That fixes the right problem that's 100% relevant vs trying to solve something that's 0% relevant as it's not even realistic in the first place to land on 09R.

[richboy2307]

@Speedbird193@BrianT Team is requesting if you can ideally provide a video of the following so they can observe the BeyondATC ATC and AI behaviour?

• An overview drone camera showing the marked area, let it play for a few minutes that shows what the AI traffic is doing (with beyond ATC)
• The instructions BeyondATC are giving you
  

52 minutes ago, Speedbird193 said:

Thanks. It's unrealistic though....

There is no wholly "realistic" solution to this issue is the problem. Doing it one way will create "unrealistic" problems for another use case. No matter what is done, there will be a sacrifice to realism somewhere to some user. To you your use case is more likely, and thereby a bigger issue, whereas to a non BeyondATC user, this may not be so.

Yes its "unrealistic" for AI to use 9R for landing per "preferential" flows, but its not impossible for that to happen in the sim currently. But regardless of runway used, aircraft should not land on displaced threshold, which to some users would be the greater "unrealistic" behaviour. You see my point? 

We're not trying to be dismissive of your issue or the gravity of it. We acknowledge it and see it, but I am just relaying to you that it isn't a simple solution and changing these things can have other knock-on effects (and I'm not just talking about ATC/AI here anymore, though that was certainly one of the issues observed).

For the most part AI / ATC pathing in MSFS (20 or 24) leaves a lot to be desired, with very little in the way of control over this process in the scenery editor. We can't dictate a path the AI uses when there are multiple taxiways available; we can only specify where a runway or taxiway is. (This runway start point isn't exclusively used for AI either, its just where the sim sees as the runway start point overall so it can affect how runways data, lights, markings and other things are shown in the sim). So even then it may not  resolve the issue of AI traffic trying to cross 9R for example after changing where the runway is.

In any case, your suggestion is noted. We will see if a suitable workaround can be found, however I cannot guarantee it will be changed if trying to achieve this results in other problems. From what I know this was something they had gone over already in development and the current implemented solution is one that caused the least amount of problems overall.

Thanks for understanding!

[BrianT]

Thanks for keeping an open mind on this I'll try and get the video you requested today. as regards BATC I should also point out that VATSIM also works on a 9L arrivals and 9R for departures, also as the displaced area is just 30 meters it's also unlikely any AI is ever going to land in that area.

 

From Vatsim

Runway Alternation

When westerlies are in operation, a runway change can be expected at 1500 LOCAL.
(Please note, when in easterly operations there is no runway alternation - 09L is used for arrivals and 09R for departures)