waiting for feedback FMS SEC Flight Plan Activation Caused WASM Crash?

[TGPF14]

Aircraft: A350-900

Simulator: FS2020

Hello Inibuilds Team,

As per the title, arriving into EDDF, either I via user error or the aircraft had erased the active flight plan (I suspect it was my own doing as I was trying to add a transition and must have forced the loss of the active FLP. This is not the issue/bug, however, maybe useful for context). 

I then attempted activate the SEC Flight Plan as the active had nothing in it, upon pressing "CONFIRM*" the FMS and all screens froze. I was able to manually fly the pitch and roll axis of the aircraft, although the aircraft claimed to still have A/P 1 engaged, however, had no control over the throttle which was stuck in the CLB detent.

I suspect this was a WASM crash, however, I am not fully certain and do not want to misdirect regarding the cause of the freezing aircraft. That said assuming it was a WASM crash I would like to submit this support topic as I imagine Inibuilds is attempting to track all possible user inputs which may result in a WASM crash.

Please do let me know if I can provide anymore info!

Thanks.

[LIN888]

I met the same issue, also, when i try to insert new waypoint in Plan, the CDU stuck and the aircraft starts nosedive.

platform: MFS2020

Edited Wednesday at 05:17 AM by LIN888

[TGPF14]

Seems like the FMS in this thing desperately needs some maintenance (among other areas)! 

I've only done this single "proper" A to B flight in it after just mucking about in the pattern for the past month while waiting for the bugs to settle. Was hoping by now it would be down to oddball/rare bugs and crashes, however, its more than a little disappointing when the airplane flat out quits on you while you're preforming a seemingly mundane task in the FMS.

[Nace42]

a simple A to B direct too has about a 50/50 shot of working currently. ive ran into this so many times ive just decided to move on. even worse, ive had it to where a route would work one time, but then on the way back after closing the sim and restarting it, would cause a wasm failure. its the same route, but in reverse.....and all it is is a departure airport and a arrival airport plugged into the FMS. its quite disappointing for sure.

Edited Wednesday at 10:45 AM by Nace42

[TGPF14]

For sure, after doing a proper A to B with a Simbrief route, 40 minutes prep and 2 hours flying, I was pretty annoyed that it crashed in the terminal area of the arrival airport...

So happy I listened to my gut and decided to play it safe with a short test hop rather than flying it on a 13 hour flight! 

Hope Inibuilds can get this thing to at least work properly in its basic functions!

[richboy2307]

Hi

Thanks for your report. Sorry for your experience, but based on described symptoms it does appear to be a WASM crash. When that happens any parts of the aircraft that run on WASM will stop functioning (most notably displays stop responding), while the sim itself and non-WASM bits continue working (such as your flight controls for example).

What happens after a WASM crash is irrelevant. What we need specifically in order to reproduce and better diagnose the experienced issue is
- a) to match the exact conditions, and then
- b) the exact steps taken just before the WASM crash was induced

If these crashes can be reproduced reliably following the above, we can see with debugging tools attached to better understand what may be going wrong. More importantly, we can test/verify the efficacy of any potential fixes once we can establish the exact steps & conditions required to normally induce a crash.

So for that reason, in case you're getting this issue reliably, please make a report with all the information (and most recent autosave before the crash) as requested here:

5 hours ago, Nace42 said:

a simple A to B direct too has about a 50/50 shot of working currently.

6 hours ago, TGPF14 said:

Seems like the FMS in this thing desperately needs some maintenance (among other areas)! 

5 hours ago, TGPF14 said:

Hope Inibuilds can get this thing to at least work properly in its basic functions!

Again, apologies for your experience but I assure you that your experience is not universal among the customer base. I am speaking specifically with regards to stability. The experienced issues are rarely inherent to the FMS or aircraft code itself in most the reported crashes. The fact that on your own system you experience these on some flights, and not others is also evidence of that.

For the most part these issues are resultant from errors in the way the sim is handling memory and we're having to code functions that sim itself should normally handle, but doesn't gracefully in the WASM environment. The code is the same in all instances, yet it somehow produces vastly different results on some systems/sim installs.

At the same time, there are many other users who are flying consistently, many flights without any such instabilities since launch even. Flights ranging from Long/Short A to B or multi destination turnarounds even. Personally I use the SEC F-PLN feature a lot in testing and have yet to induce a WASM-crash, though I have broken some LNAV/VNAV calculations in some instances (which was logged and is being worked on).

Just some random examples from Volanta for evidence of the above:

A-B-A Turnarounds

A-B Longhauls


A-B-C turnarounds


A-B-C-B-D turnarounds - single session - launch version

I understand your frustrations, its equally annoying for us as developers. However as all of the updates since launch will show, we are committed to improving the product and ensuring a good experience for all users.

In order to be fruitful in this endeavour, we also require your help in providing all the requested info. 
Your time and patience is appreciated.

Thanks!

[TGPF14]

Hello Richboy2307,

To reply simply, the aircraft became unflyable after the FMS dumped the flight plan. I suspect the fact that I was already beyond the start of the STAR when I tried to activate the SEC PLN may have confused it but again this is speculation as mentioned in my original comment (this was never intended to be a detailed bug report, more a heads up for the team as I'm sure you have other reports where the smallest related detail may prove to be invaluable when working out said bugs?). Per my recollection of the event and my original comment, the screens were unresponsive (at the very least the FMS/MFD were, I was not in the mood to fly a an unguided missile so I stopped paying attention to the PFD & ND shortly after a minute or two playing with a non-responsive FMS. That said I do recall none of the data changing even though I was still descending and again A/P 1 was in but I could hand fly with no restriction or warnings), the aircraft effectively had no systems and no controllable thrust, just a sidestick and the close sim button.

I unfortunately do not have the very precious free time, and quite honestly the desire, to do patterns at Frankfurt trying to replicate the crash, unfortunately this is all the info I can provide at this moment, should I encounter the issue again I will happily look out for more details and info and submit another post.

As for the second part of the lengthy reply regarding various lettered flights, I must say, I am somewhat perplexed as to how a developers attitude can be "it sucks for us too, but your a minority case as many others aren't having the issue just look at these bits of "evidence"", my surprise is only furthered by the fact that there are others in this very thread mentioning issues with A to B flights being highly unreliable (in their experiences!) and FMS related functions! This leaves quite a lot to be desired regarding developer trust, especially when paying a premium for a product to end up being a beta tester...

To conclude, I am currently trying to fly your A330 transatlantic, and thus far with this being my second flight in it in the past few months (again free time is precious and unfortunately we can't spend most our days in sims 🙂, nor should paying customers be spending said time replicating crashes which should not be occurring on released "premium" products!) I must say I am so far quite pleased. There are a few rather large issues, for example the fact that one can not remove chocks without steeping out of the aircraft (which when using Crtl+Shft+E seems to depower the plane!) unless I am doing something wrong here. My A330 related point being (other than highlighting a potential issue with the A330s) is that I do fully believe or at least still do that you can turn the A350 into a great addon, your commitment is acknowledged and appreciated, however, as of right now I unfortunately can only say that responses such as the above (long winded "others are ok so its not that bad" types of responses) and the exuberant marketing & price policy that led to the seemingly unpolished A350 release and follow-on can only leave a bad taste in ones/the paying consumer's mouth!

Regardless, I wish Inibuilds all the best in achieving the quality they advertised and set out to create, I also look forward to hopefully being part of the "others who are not having such issues" camp hopefully soon, and as I do not have the free time to test and repeat what may have caused the crash feel free to close this thread so we can all move on... should there be a repeat or any other issues (that haven't already been raised in various forums not just here) I will consider raising it assuming I won't be told "others aren't having the issue" in response...

Sincerely,

A very disappointed customer.  

 

P.S. The first part of your response indicates you either did not read my post fully or something was lost in translation along the way, as I specifically stated (in response to your "Thanks for your report. Sorry for your experience, but based on described symptoms it does appear to be a WASM crash. When that happens any parts of the aircraft that run on WASM will stop functioning (most notably displays stop responding), while the sim itself and non-WASM bits continue working (such as your flight controls for example).":

"I then attempted activate the SEC Flight Plan as the active had nothing in it, upon pressing "CONFIRM*" the FMS and all screens froze. I was able to manually fly the pitch and roll axis of the aircraft, although the aircraft claimed to still have A/P 1 engaged, however, [I] had no control over the throttle which was stuck in the CLB detent."

As for the events after this occurred, well there were none, there was no longer a working A350 in my simulator, hence I closed the sim. Hope that clarifies that. 

[richboy2307]

Thanks for explanations. Unfortunately what you're saying is just affirmation of a WASM crash, but not much info that is useful in determining its cause or to attempt reproducing it on our end.

10 hours ago, TGPF14 said:

As for the second part of the lengthy reply regarding various lettered flights, I must say, I am somewhat perplexed as to how a developers attitude can be "it sucks for us too, but your a minority case as many others aren't having the issue just look at these bits of "evidence"", my surprise is only furthered by the fact that there are others in this very thread mentioning issues with A to B flights being highly unreliable (in their experiences!) and FMS related functions! This leaves quite a lot to be desired regarding developer trust, especially when paying a premium for a product to end up being a beta tester...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. We have every intention to try and resolve these issues, as we have been on every update that is been pushed since release. However without the other requested info it is like chasing a needle in a haystack, but where the needle has a random chance of being there, and not being there at all depending on whose barn the haystack is in. Because of the very nature of these WASM crashes being only reproducible in very specific circumstances on certain systems, it is equally hard to even verify any fix implemented based upon guesstimation would even be effective as we can't test by inducing the same scenario again if we don't have all the requested information.

I don't expect you or any customer to go and repeat the same instance over and over, however as you or others on this thread are reporting it happens fairly regularly on your systems, I'm merely describing what you should do in an instance it happens again on any other flight instead of exiting your sim immediately.

By giving us the information whenever you do experience a crash in normal use of the product, we can try doing it internally within the development and testing teams over and over again until we can reproduce the crash, and then over and over in testing after a supposed fix is implemented. We wouldn't need to do this if it were a 100% reproducible problem that occurred on every system.

 

Ofcourse only the users who are having issues will be coming and reporting it on support forums/discord and thats is what you're seeing. What I'm showing is a small sample of the many other users who don't have such issues, and will continue to fly without coming here or mentioning anything. This was to demonstrate the complexity of the reported issues and why your proper reporting is important for us. Its not an obvious issue that manifests on all installed instances of A350 (be it customer or development). So its impossible to address an issue that never appears normally for testers/developers, nor we can force to reproduce on the basis of provided information.

P.S. I have read your post, hence why I said " based on described symptoms it does appear to be a WASM crash". Then I merely offered the reasoning for it by describing what typically happens on a WASM crash.

If you can provide the info, we can take this further, otherwise as much as we'd love to, there is not enough information to proceed. Thanks!

[Nace42]

for context in the month its been out, the A350 has behaved the exact same as my previous pc build i had (R7 7700, 4060,32g of RAM), as it does on my new build (R7 9800X3D, 5080,64gbs of RAM) and also seems to happen on almost all the same routes (i dont dare try other routes outside of the u.s very often). are we sure we cant replicate these? i get one every couple hours of flying extremely consistently regardless of my pc build (for giggles ill boot up the old I7 2070super build and see as wel)l. dont take this the wrong way, i LOVE the A350. i just think some of us are passionate about wanting to fly this without having to reset WASM or whatever other tricks others use to get it to run right. the other day (last time i flew it) i reported a wasm crash for 24, deleted the wasm etc, reinstalled everything, and i ended up getting one abck to back in the same spot. i could prob fill up quite abit of the forum on the amount of wasm crashes i run into regardless of pc build. again i love the A350. im just providing more input and context regarding different issues on different systems.

[richboy2307]

2 hours ago, Nace42 said:

for context in the month its been out, the A350 has behaved the exact same as my previous pc build i had (R7 7700, 4060,32g of RAM), as it does on my new build (R7 9800X3D, 5080,64gbs of RAM) and also seems to happen on almost all the same routes (i dont dare try other routes outside of the u.s very often). are we sure we cant replicate these?

Depends, not true for all instances of WASM crash, some are genuine code problems which will be 100% reproducible regardless of system used, and those are much easier to address. However of the 60 or so different types of WASM crashes scenarios reported,  that we have been testing since launch in this time, only 8 were 100% reproducible across systems and sims. For some others we kept trying on our own and tester's system until one instance that could induce a crash and then continue the process from there; testing solutions on that system too until it too stopped reproducing the issue.

I know it may sound unbelievable when on your own systems you're constantly getting crashes, not able to enjoy the product, but that is not the experience of majority of the customer base or testers. For those experiencing issues, they're here reporting their problems and we're working with them to resolve, on the condition that we can get the required info to reproduce the problem.

Where successfully reproduced, we are testing the fixes on the systems where the crash was successfully reproduced, and then eventually shipping them in updates to the customer.

2 hours ago, Nace42 said:

reported a wasm crash for 24, deleted the wasm etc, reinstalled everything, and i ended up getting one abck to back in the same spot. i could prob fill up quite abit of the forum on the amount of wasm crashes i run into regardless of pc build. again i love the A350. im just providing more input and context regarding different issues on different systems.

Yes, please do report them, in the format with all the requested information so that we can try these on our end and hopefully reproduce and thereby resolve them!

I am not trying to deny anyone's crashes exist, nor discouraging them from posting. I am just emphasizing that in our experience of what has been reported so far, not all crashes are universally reproducible, hence why we need all relevant information to keep trying on the basis of that information, on a multitude of systems (especially one closest to reported) until we can replicate the crash and thereby attempt to resolve it.

I will also admit that there are a lot of reports, some duplicates across various support channels, so not all have been responded to. We're working on resolving that too but as long as they're posted on any support channel, they will be eventually looked at if not already.

The SEC F-PLN related crash experienced by OP here may be so under the specific circumstances of the exact route and flight situation they were in. However without information to reproduce, we cannot test for ourselves to be sure. Speaking from my experience of using SEC F-PLN or making F-PLN revisions on the fly whilst flying on the network during as late as approach and then later on go around, I've not been able to induce a WASM crash on any version since launch, though I have broken the LNAV sequencing/VNAV profile under very specific circumstances (all of which have been reported and team are working on).

Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but help us help you. We want to solve all crashes, so feed us the information that we need to do so.

Thanks!

[Nace42]

3 hours ago, richboy2307 said:

Depends, not true for all instances of WASM crash, some are genuine code problems which will be 100% reproducible regardless of system used, and those are much easier to address. However of the 60 or so different types of WASM crashes scenarios reported,  that we have been testing since launch in this time, only 8 were 100% reproducible across systems and sims. For some others we kept trying on our own and tester's system until one instance that could induce a crash and then continue the process from there; testing solutions on that system too until it too stopped reproducing the issue.

I know it may sound unbelievable when on your own systems you're constantly getting crashes, not able to enjoy the product, but that is not the experience of majority of the customer base or testers. For those experiencing issues, they're here reporting their problems and we're working with them to resolve, on the condition that we can get the required info to reproduce the problem.

Where successfully reproduced, we are testing the fixes on the systems where the crash was successfully reproduced, and then eventually shipping them in updates to the customer.

Yes, please do report them, in the format with all the requested information so that we can try these on our end and hopefully reproduce and thereby resolve them!

I am not trying to deny anyone's crashes exist, nor discouraging them from posting. I am just emphasizing that in our experience of what has been reported so far, not all crashes are universally reproducible, hence why we need all relevant information to keep trying on the basis of that information, on a multitude of systems (especially one closest to reported) until we can replicate the crash and thereby attempt to resolve it.

I will also admit that there are a lot of reports, some duplicates across various support channels, so not all have been responded to. We're working on resolving that too but as long as they're posted on any support channel, they will be eventually looked at if not already.

The SEC F-PLN related crash experienced by OP here may be so under the specific circumstances of the exact route and flight situation they were in. However without information to reproduce, we cannot test for ourselves to be sure. Speaking from my experience of using SEC F-PLN or making F-PLN revisions on the fly whilst flying on the network during as late as approach and then later on go around, I've not been able to induce a WASM crash on any version since launch, though I have broken the LNAV sequencing/VNAV profile under very specific circumstances (all of which have been reported and team are working on).

Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but help us help you. We want to solve all crashes, so feed us the information that we need to do so.

Thanks!

i actually enjoy it very much even with the issues honestly. its a really great aircraft and really easy on the eyes as well as photogenic, but thanks for the insight! always appreciate the extra info. fingers crossed things settle down regarding the wasm issue but regardless i am quite happy with the aircraft in the times ive been able to fly it etc. ill make sure to start posting every single one with whats needed from my side in the hopes we can crush these. 

Edited Thursday at 03:34 PM by Nace42