solved t-33 horizon broken and ctd after 30minute flight

[einherz]

hi, thank you for this piece of art. everything looking cool inside, i don't look outside too much so can't judge really. but we have one elephant in the room. artificial horizon totally broken, and i didn't found any single post about that, like only i see that. about ctd i really forgot about that in msfs long time ago, now when i take t-33 after some flight about 30minute-hour, probably more some time. it's gonna be crash to desktop. all time i take 100 fuel, without instructor, change pilot to 140. 120+~20 suit. so use some not standard scheme. i don't use any mods so  far, that can change something, except simfx, probably some conflict i don't know, and honestly don't want to know. some time i can fly pretty long refill from tip tanks thrice some  time four times. but some time it's crash even before i use some more than half of fus.
and i have one question. what the difference between norm and fus on fuselage tank switcher, both works same way. what the case of bypass it's use when engine fire, for stop fuel flowing or something?
thank you.

[richboy2307]

2 hours ago, einherz said:

artificial horizon totally broken, and i didn't found any single post about that, like only i see that

Hi, could you please elaborate on this one? What is broken about it? It would also help if you could include a screenshot of what you're noticing.

As a note, some of the gyro instruments, like the Artificial Horizon wouldn't work properly if the INVERTER is not switched on. This switch is towards the bottom right corner of the front panel.

2 hours ago, einherz said:

But some time it's crash even before i use some more than half of fus.

We have flown the plane for extensive periods, point A-B flights even for periods longer than 30 minutes without any reported CTD issues by testers, or observed internally. So this is most likely something specific to your simulator, either configuration or some other addons causing issues (such as SimFX). 

Can you try the following, to rule out any other conflicting addons?

Quote

 

To run with a blank community folder without losing your addons:
1. Rename your existing community folder to ``_Community``
2. Create a new ``Community`` folder in its place.
3. Run the sim and see if same problem persists.

After finished testing, you can close the sim, and restore your original folder as follows:
1. Delete the new ``Community`` folder you made
2. Rename the ``_Community`` folder to ``Community``

 

 

2 hours ago, einherz said:

what the difference between norm and fus on fuselage tank switcher, both works same way. what the case of bypass it's use when engine fire, for stop fuel flowing or something?

As for the fuselage tank switch,

• FUSE: The fuselage tank booster pump (electrically driven) is turned ON to supply fuel to the engine under boosted pressure.
  
  This makes sense if you're expecting to conduct manoeuvres that may lead to situations where engine could potentially be starved of fuel, or the fuel quantity remaining is generally low. 
   
• NORMAL: The fuselage tank booster pump (electrically driven) is turned OFF, and the fuselage tank by-pass valve is set for normal operation (i.e. open) to supply fuel to the engine under normal engine-driven demand pressure. 
   
• BYPASS: The fuselage tank booster pump (electrically driven) is turned OFF, and the fuselage tank by-pass valve is reset to permit fuel from the other selected tanks to by-pass the fuselage tank straight into the engine. This should only work provided either Leading Edge or Wing tanks are selected on. 
  
  This is indeed an abnormal operation procedure for which you want to avoid routing fuel through the fuselage tank (usually due to a suspected failed/clogged fuselage tank valve).

Thanks!

[einherz]

thank you, now no confusion with fus norm bypass:) about horizon, i guess it's too obviously, i don't think is need to be pictured or vidioed:) the horizon in the gauge always horizon and not earth horizon, but aircraft horizon, just make banking and you will see what i'm talking about, banking little triangle moving, but horizon line not turn at all, only go up and down... inverted on of course if it wasn't, the bank triangle would be stuck somewhere. gyro ball's elements works all as expected, but not the horizon line. heavy contrast with such a good model, you can open all youtube videos with this model, and you will see what i'm talking about... about ctd, i think there something like memory leak, because it's not 100% reproducing, some time i can fly very long, but usually this model, and only this one give that thing, i fly usually all flyingiron fighters and milviz texan these days. nothing like that. different maps, different weather. i don't really think is conflict, because it's not constant reproduceable, but very often. when i take this beauty as all other i take all of them high and fly there some pretty long time then dive for some normal mode flight for those types of aircraft:) usually. so for me 30 minutes it's not "even" it's just one click:) again, mostly:)

just look at horizon and artificial one when banking 26:35 start banking, but horizon in the gauge still show you aren't banking.

[einherz]

i start to edit the post, and had message post not found, then click on general replay and my text was copypasted, so i thought it's will edit:) so double post:)

[richboy2307]

23 hours ago, einherz said:

about horizon, i guess it's too obviously, i don't think is need to be pictured or vidioed:) the horizon in the gauge always horizon and not earth horizon, but aircraft horizon, just make banking and you will see what i'm talking about, banking little triangle moving, but horizon line not turn at all, only go up and down... inverted on of course if it wasn't, the bank triangle would be stuck somewhere. gyro ball's elements works all as expected, but not the horizon line.

Yeah that was intentional. We had received feedback early on during testing that the horizon line only moved up and down on this particular instrument, whereas bank indicated by the top triangle and the angle of the gyro ball inside the ADI.

So it was changed to reflect that feedback. But we'll look into it again and make the changes if necessary. Thanks!

23 hours ago, einherz said:

about ctd, i think there something like memory leak, because it's not 100% reproducing, some time i can fly very long, but usually this model, and only this one give that thing,

Unfortunately also unlikely. I've done 3 60min+ flights with different avionics and could not observe any memory leak or abnormally high memory usage. Sorry, we're not able to reproduce any CTDs on our end.

Try with an empty community folder as suggested above. Or without any additional software running that communicates with the sim in real-time to rule out potential conflicts. 

For completeness, I have been using this plane extensively with addons like FSRealistic, Vpilot, Navigraph Simlink, LittleNavMap, FSUIPC7 and SPAD.Next without issue.

  

23 hours ago, einherz said:

i start to edit the post, and had message post not found, then click on general replay and my text was copypasted, so i thought it's will edit:) so double post:)

Fixed.

Thanks!

[einherz]

that's odd, and you know, it's highly inconvenient, and i'd say strongly unbelievable:) probably something misunderstanding, because when you flight night or bad weather you prefer to see the artificial horizon works as usual, actually you can use only inclinometer and vsi. but horizon line just can not use to be have this behavior by one simple cause - this can and will confuse pilot in bad visibility, and that's stuff dangerous in this condition. i'm not a pilot, and even never flight as real pilot, but this incredibly impossible, and have 0 sense.
i think cause of ctd was around fslt i flew again with msfs default real traffic and after landing had only 95g in type tanks, so i flew long enough. from odesa to dnipro, from dnipro to kyiv... nothing even close looks like ctd:) however by some reason there no traffic at all in msfs. i don't really know what cause could be, but guess it can be everything include system conflict, like wrong memory command if use t-33 or something similar and fslt or something like that. or even only hardware problem. but how i said, ctd it's really rare event for me long time so far, except t-33 if flight some enough time for this.
back to the horizon... it's moving this weird way even if the adf caged. so there something really wrong. this stuff in any way must show horizon it's too common function for change it to that strange way. i don't think the horizon line can be separate element, almost sure it just fixed part of the gyro ball... and gyro ball just must stay with same position and modeling the earth. this is the point, as i see. i really don't know, just think, you know...
thank you, i hope this situation will solved soon, right now i will googling types of adf, i'm highly curious:)

[einherz]

all i found is this attitude indicator type j8:) but info about ah, that's moves  only up/down... as expected - nothing

[einherz]

and one photo on some forum

 

[einherz]

and most importantly this
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/606486-gyro-turning-errors.html#post10506304
problem of this attitude indicator not in only one direction, the need to calibrate it every 3-4 minutes:) and be ready to use inclinometer as mentioned, and of course air speed, that i forgot, as by this parameter we can know how aoa close/far to/from 0... bad thing but hardly happen with inclinometer if we have inverted flight without banking and trimmed to have positive g, so with 0 viz, it will exactly as flight normal way by feeling, but in this situation again airspeed will grows too fast. so in any way we can be good if have only inclinometer and working air speed indicator. in the post that guy explain everything, i just write it inertially lol

[richboy2307]

9 hours ago, einherz said:

i think cause of ctd was around fslt i flew again with msfs default real traffic and after landing had only 95g in type tanks, so i flew long enough. from odesa to dnipro, from dnipro to kyiv... nothing even close looks like ctd:) however by some reason there no traffic at all in msfs. i don't really know what cause could be, but guess it can be everything include system conflict, like wrong memory command if use t-33 or something similar and fslt or something like that. or even only hardware problem. but how i said, ctd it's really rare event for me long time so far, except t-33 if flight some enough time for this.

I have also used the T-33 along with FSLTL Traffic using the modern avionics without issues. One of the A-B flights I did were KTPA to KMIA (with FSLTL), along with some other operations en-route. Did not experience any CTD with a lot of traffic around, as part of testing returns on the G3X TCAS. So again, the T-33 itself is highly unlikely to be the cause of a CTD.

 

9 hours ago, einherz said:

i don't think the horizon line can be separate element, almost sure it just fixed part of the gyro ball.

As for the horizon bar, it is a separate element that isn't part of the rotating gyro ball inside. It just moves within the visual limits of the instrument, unable to hide itself completely in either extremity of pitch attitude.

That being said, thanks for the additional resources and documentation linked. Will share with the team.

Thanks!

[einherz]

yes, my speculation was wrong, it's not rare event lol...
thank you

[einherz]

i didn't use modern avionic so far in the star. and as i said i don't really know what the cause, it can be anything include hardware. just some strange meet so old "friend":)

[CF104]

The Attitude Indicator, as modeled, is completely wrong in operation. The J-8 Attitude indicator (Mil-I-5133B) is the type installed in the T-33A and is confirmed with the T-33A Parts Catalog T.O.1T-33A-4. The J-8 has gyro stabilized pitch and roll functions. Keep in mind that the T-33 was used as an instrument trainer so having an Attitude Indicator that doesn't actually indicate your attitude is completely useless.   

The J-8, in it's simplest form, has 3 major visual reference components. The outer components consist of the fixed roll markings and the adjustable pitch trim bar. The gyro stabilized horizon bar indicates roll, and pitch up to 25°(+/-2°) positive and negative. This bar will never go completely out of view as it stops at the 25° pitch limits and will rotate around the periphery of the indicator to maintain the correct down indication of the horizon bar during rolls and loops. The inner sphere has CLIMB and DIVE markings when operating beyond the 25° pitch limits.

I've attached screen grabs of the T-33A flight manual that describes the J-8 in very good detail.

Cheers,

John

 

 

[ftsx.free.lw]

22 hours ago, CF104 said:

The Attitude Indicator, as modeled, is completely wrong in operation. The J-8 Attitude indicator (Mil-I-5133B) is the type installed in the T-33A and is confirmed with the T-33A Parts Catalog T.O.1T-33A-4. The J-8 has gyro stabilized pitch and roll functions. Keep in mind that the T-33 was used as an instrument trainer so having an Attitude Indicator that doesn't actually indicate your attitude is completely useless.   

The J-8, in it's simplest form, has 3 major visual reference components. The outer components consist of the fixed roll markings and the adjustable pitch trim bar. The gyro stabilized horizon bar indicates roll, and pitch up to 25°(+/-2°) positive and negative. This bar will never go completely out of view as it stops at the 25° pitch limits and will rotate around the periphery of the indicator to maintain the correct down indication of the horizon bar during rolls and loops. The inner sphere has CLIMB and DIVE markings when operating beyond the 25° pitch limits.

I've attached screen grabs of the T-33A flight manual that describes the J-8 in very good detail.

Cheers,

John

 

That's exactly right, I was about to write the same details!
Here's a screenshot of a video of a T-33SF (French conversion of the A and MK III) from GE 314 de Tours (LFOT), in action with the J8 and of course the gyro also works on the roll axis... it's better for training the little chicks, future all-weather pilots with hours of training under a knitted VSV canopy in the rear seat this time, yes because no canopy in the front seat.
Then, throughout their careers, French pilots spent every 12 months at the C.E.V.S.V 338 (Centre d'entrainement au vol sans visibilité) in Nancy-Ochey (LFSO), known as the “Cloud Exorciser”, to revalidate their all-weather title - this time on T-33As, therefore non-Frenchized, but equipped with ILS reception antennas on the nose and the accompanying instruments in the cabin, including the J8 Attitude Gyro Indicator!

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

ll with it in the cabin including the J8 Attitude Gyro Indicator!

[CF104]

Hi All, Further to my last post regarding the J-8 attitude indicator, I'd like to recommend that if any of the development team has access to DCS that they give the F-86F a try to see its correct behavior. The F-86 has a modified J-8 with pitch lines but it's otherwise the same instrument and operation.

Cheers,

John

[einherz]

i don't think dcs modelling precession, but i really don't know. above i show the post from other forum there pilot said that thing actually useless, because need to be calibrated all time. and that's why you have to use bank and turn stuff there needle and ball can and will helpful with airspeed together. so actually pilots can use that thing, but with inclinometer. german ww2 birds has that horizon just together in one gauge where bank and turn by needle and ball. i really don't like calling the turn and slip, because literally nothing can show you slip/slide in an aircraft, because all that stuff have reaction on - is acceleration. slide/slip when aircraft moved by wind and corrected it by ailerons and rudder have constant side speed vector, and that's mean all that stuff will on neutral position. in the other hand when aircraft use rudder and have constant turning ball will show that turn because of centrifugal force... sorry for offtopic. but ball with needle actually show bank/roll and turn, not turn and slip:) and this certain attitude indicator too unstable for use it without correction. i guess most of them had this problem, except some really simple like attitude ball in the water/glycerol or something modern probably, i have no idea actually:)

[CF104]

16 hours ago, einherz said:

i don't think dcs modelling precession, but i really don't know. above i show the post from other forum there pilot said that thing actually useless, because need to be calibrated all time. and that's why you have to use bank and turn stuff there needle and ball can and will helpful with airspeed together. so actually pilots can use that thing, but with inclinometer. german ww2 birds has that horizon just together in one gauge where bank and turn by needle and ball. i really don't like calling the turn and slip, because literally nothing can show you slip/slide in an aircraft, because all that stuff have reaction on - is acceleration. slide/slip when aircraft moved by wind and corrected it by ailerons and rudder have constant side speed vector, and that's mean all that stuff will on neutral position. in the other hand when aircraft use rudder and have constant turning ball will show that turn because of centrifugal force... sorry for offtopic. but ball with needle actually show bank/roll and turn, not turn and slip:) and this certain attitude indicator too unstable for use it without correction. i guess most of them had this problem, except some really simple like attitude ball in the water/glycerol or something modern probably, i have no idea actually:)

Regardless whether or not DCS models precession doesn't change the fact that the attitude indicator, in it's current form, is nowhere near how a J-8 is supposed to work and that the one in DCS is a good example of how it functions. That forum post is from someone who used this gauge 57 years ago. I'm sure that the fog of time has blurred some facts and perceptions. If the gauge actually worked as an attitude indicator should then we wouldn't be going down the road of 57 year old memories and probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm guessing that INI Builds' intention wasn't to do a study level T-33A with attitude indicator gyro precession etc.  If they got it to work according to the documented information I posted, it would be a great plus for this sim. 

Cheers,

John

[einherz]

sure, in 1.0.1 it's much better:) if next version will get limitation of ah to 23-27* it's will next step. i know only one person on planet who does never wrong is myself, because i do nothing.

[einherz]

may be you guys know what that's mean, i had that graphic all time after ctd
that commit charge spike always or almost always before ctd
 

[einherz]

btw we have in 1.0.1  limited horizon as real one, i just didn't notice that first time:)

[einherz]

looks like after update bios i can use all settings as i would without ctd, that was rare but annoying, attitude stuff works as should(except precession, but nobody else model it, but atsimulation piaggio, afailk) so... i think i can change topic name and add "solved"... hope that will not problem:)

[einherz]

i don't see the opportunity for change the thread name... would be cool if you guys add to this topic "solved" for this post will not confuse anybody...
thank you

[Eddie]

Hi! Glad its sorted for you 🙂 I'll mark it solved. Thanks!